Curse

Jaigoda · May 23, 2009, 05:00 AM // 05:00

1. Assassin or Necro. 'Sins are easily some of the best DPS machines, while Necros can take curses or 10 minions for damage.

2. Monk, most likely, though once you get to a certain level not much at all is hard.

3. Assassin and Monk. About 95% of teams will need one or both of these.

4. Assassins have perma (best tank skill in the game by miles) or Critical Agility for ~100AL, warriors have inherent armor bonuses, rangers are non-squishy and have stances, Paras because of range and 80AL.

5.
Assassins and Monks are the most fun to play with, IMO. There's so much possible with them that it's hard to ever get bored. 'Sins have Moebius, Critscythe, Assassin's Promise, Locust's Fury, plus can farm almost anywhere possible to farm with Shadow Form. Monks have lots of different healing/prot builds, and smiting has now been buffed to actually be a strong and fun option. And again, the vast majority of teams want one or both of them, so you'll never be out of a group.

Xenomortis · May 23, 2009, 08:16 AM // 08:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

3. Assassin and Monk. About 95% of teams will need one or both of these.

I disagree. A good assassin may be nice, but is certainly not necessary.
And a monk can very easily be substituted out for something like an ER Ele.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

smiting has now been buffed to actually be a strong and fun option.

No, Ray of Judgement got buffed and remains broken. Smiting Prayers as a whole has recieved very little attention for PvE otherwise. The recent buff to Strength of Honor is nice though.

Jaigoda · May 23, 2009, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

I disagree. A good assassin may be nice, but is certainly not necessary.

Tell that to any farming team with a perma (which is almost every one of them now). Plus, if you have to you can go AP, Moebius, Critscythe/bow, even Locust's Fury for triggering physical buffs and pumping SY. And anways, no profession is exactly necessary, but most groups will take a monk or a certain type of assassin if given the chance. Maybe I should have said that they are 'welcome' or 'have a place' in 95% of groups.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

And a monk can very easily be substituted out for something like an ER Ele.

Fact is, the vast majority of people still use monks. They're much more reliable when you have a skilled player behind them (i.e. no downtime casting self-management stuff, little vulnerability to enchantment stripping). Maybe once ER ele's catch on you might see a shift, but I have a feeling it's gonna get nerfed before them (well, I'm just hoping Anet will see how broken it is even for PvE, and nerf accordingly).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

No, Ray of Judgement got buffed and remains broken. Smiting Prayers as a whole has recieved very little attention for PvE otherwise. The recent buff to Strength of Honor is nice though.

Doing lots of AoE damage while removing hexes and conditions is gud. Buffing any attacker for +20 damage per hit is gud. Jesus Beam is gud. An offensive Reversal of Fortune is gud. And healing for 60-80 every time you cast on an ally is very gud. Oh, and 2 optionals even after all those skills is pretty damn gud in my eyes.

Xenomortis · May 23, 2009, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Assassins are useful, yes. However, for general PvE they are rarely necessary.
For a lot of farming groups, SF is more or less a necessity though.

Monks are not necessary in the majority of groups. The fact they're used by the majority of groups does not make them necessary. I've yet to find a monk that can outperform a competent ER Ele.

Bobby2 · May 23, 2009, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

Doing lots of AoE damage while removing hexes and conditions is gud. Buffing any attacker for +20 damage per hit is gud. Jesus Beam is gud. An offensive Reversal of Fortune is gud. And healing for 60-80 every time you cast on an ally is very gud. Oh, and 2 optionals even after all those skills is pretty damn gud in my eyes.

Smite Condition is a terrible skill

Jaigoda · May 24, 2009, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Assassins are useful, yes. However, for general PvE they are rarely necessary.
For a lot of farming groups, SF is more or less a necessity though.

Uhh, like I said, no profession is really necessary in PvE, except maybe monks (or ER's if you so prefer - they probably won't last long anyway). Sabway or even heroes in general are not needed, but that doesn't make them anything but some of the most useful things for PvE. This 'necessary' crap is a pretty moot point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Monks are not necessary in the majority of groups. The fact they're used by the majority of groups does not make them necessary. I've yet to find a monk that can outperform a competent ER Ele.

Read above. Necessary =/= a solid profession that can always find a group. An ele is neither necessary nor finds itself on many of the popular farming groups at the moment.

Oh, and how is Smite Condition not a good skill? It removes tough conditions like blind, DW, and dazed, while dealing 60 damage to everyone in the area (not adjacent or some crap like that), AND healing the target for about 80. I don't see how that could be considered bad, lol.

Xenomortis · May 24, 2009, 09:21 AM // 09:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

except maybe monks (or ER's if you so prefer - they probably won't last long anyway)

Have you ever played with a good ER ele? They outlast monks by a bloody mile. Only on the odd area will they have problems and they are usually problems that can be circumvated or protected against.

You've gone off a bit here. I argued against this:
"3. Assassin and Monk. About 95% of teams will need one or both of these."
I said that neither of those is necessary on a lot of teams - which is in direct opposition to your claim. You've now changed tack by saying no profession is strictly necessary (which I cannot really disagree with). Even the monk can be made unnecessary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

AND healing the target for about 80. I don't see how that could be considered bad, lol.

That's an exaggeration. Unless of course, you frequently run 25 in Divine Favour.
Smite condition only removes one condition, which is fine if conditions are few. However a 7 second recharge hurts when you need it a lot. Dismiss condition at least as a 3 second recharge. It isn't bad though, but the damage is just icing on quite a small cake.

Jeydra · May 24, 2009, 10:15 AM // 10:15

I think by "they probably won't last long anyway" Jaigoda means they will probably be nerfed soon (I don't think so though - ANet has shown precious little concern for PvE). As for healing ~80 with Smite Condition, Jaigoda probably assumed Smiter's Boon, which all Smiters should run ...

Personally I will run Smite Condition on Smiters, if not to remove conditions with, to deal damage with. You can't possibly expect a single Smiter to heal as much as a single Monk, hence comparing Smite Condition to Dismiss Condition as a condition remover is irrelevant. Much better I would say is comparing Smite Condition to Cure Hex: Cure Hex is a hex remover that doubles as a bar push (if the bar push were useless, then why not take Remove Hex?), while Smite Condition is a damage tool that doubles as healing and a condition remover.

Xenomortis · May 24, 2009, 10:32 AM // 10:32

Oh yeah, forgot about Smiter's Boon.

Jaigoda · May 24, 2009, 03:05 PM // 15:05

Jeydra is my new friend around here. I like what he/she says.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

You've gone off a bit here. I argued against this:
"3. Assassin and Monk. About 95% of teams will need one or both of these."
I said that neither of those is necessary on a lot of teams - which is in direct opposition to your claim. You've now changed tack by saying no profession is strictly necessary (which I cannot really disagree with). Even the monk can be made unnecessary.

Sigh... I hate it when people base their entire argument on one word. Maybe I should have said "want" instead of "need," or another word out of the English dictionary. And even so, most groups are not going to take an ER ele, which means they'll need a monk, since they're the best/next best healer. Also, 'Sins are by far one of the most demanded professions for farming, so a lot of groups will need an Assassin with them. But whatever, if you prefer the word "want" then go right ahead. Stop splitting hairs.

Lariv · May 24, 2009, 06:40 PM // 18:40

So it seems like I should play Monk or Ele for the healing part/most skill required. But will I be able to damage as a Monk if/when RoJ gets nerfed? Also, why hasn't Rt been suggested? I personally like the idea of spirits, but I'm not sure if it's useful at all or will be useful on a /Rt secondary.

Jaigoda · May 24, 2009, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by yamazaru

So it seems like I should play Monk or Ele for the healing part/most skill required. But will I be able to damage as a Monk if/when RoJ gets nerfed? Also, why hasn't Rt been suggested? I personally like the idea of spirits, but I'm not sure if it's useful at all or will be useful on a /Rt secondary.

Monks aren't going to get a nerf any time soon. ER ele's, on the other hand, are likely to see the nerf bat coming in the next update or two, especially if they catch on. They're more broken than even stuff like the old Ursan, and require no more skill than mashing a single button. If you want flexible classes that can do a bit of everything and be effective at all of it, go Necro or Assassin. If you want to play a character that requires at least a good amount of skill, with the bonus of just about every group needing them (again, ER ele's are still relatively unknown, and when they're known they'll be nerfed), then go monk.

Unfortunately, Rits are likely the most underpowered profession in the game. Most of what Rits can do is actually done better by necro and ele primaries, simply because Spawning Power does next to nothing. Splinter weapon is nice, but again other professions can use it just as well. The only thing they can really do is spirit spam, which is mediocre at best. Essentially, they're like a worse version of Monks with only-slightly-useful spirits added on the side (though you really can't do anything but spirits if you invest in them). Even mesmers now have a good place due to Cry of Pain, Visions of Regret, etc., but Rits have just been repeatedly nerfed into uselessness in PvE.

Xenomortis · May 24, 2009, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

Sigh... I hate it when people base their entire argument on one word. Maybe I should have said "want" instead of "need," or another word out of the English dictionary. And even so, most groups are not going to take an ER ele, which means they'll need a monk, since they're the best/next best healer. Also, 'Sins are by far one of the most demanded professions for farming, so a lot of groups will need an Assassin with them. But whatever, if you prefer the word "want" then go right ahead. Stop splitting hairs.

I disagreed with something small. What you should have done is got straight to this bit, rather than press the issue into something quite messy. Then everything would have been fine.
What almost all groups need is some form of healer and protter - this does not necessitate a monk. That was my point, perhaps I should have been clearer.

RadaArashi · May 24, 2009, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Most people would prefer a Monk for healing/protting the sake of it being a Monk.

I remember when the healing bug bit me and wanted to run Restoration, the PUG would still invite 2 monks. It was long ago, before EoTN so perhaps Restoration wasn't as appreciated as it is now but I think the same ideology stands unless the PUG leader understands that a N/Rt, Rt/X and E/Mo can do just as well in PvE.

Ensign · May 25, 2009, 04:51 AM // 04:51

PvE builds only get nerfed when they lead to massive power farming and start to disrupt the economy. Ether Renewal E/Mos are strictly a team character, and are very unlikely to be nerfed because of it.

Azure mist · May 25, 2009, 05:59 AM // 05:59

make an assasin...

In role playing questing etc
Crit barrage
Pvp
Yaa sin, ps, BB
Uwsc
:]
Farming
SF!!!! Abuse it!

Jaigoda · May 25, 2009, 01:53 PM // 13:53

Crit Barrage is terrible. MB or Critscythe will always beat it out. Only point is if you're really trying not to die (survivor) and don't like melee range. Otherwise, you can just run Moebius+SY! and let your team be invincible instead.

Lariv · May 25, 2009, 08:33 PM // 20:33

changed my mind, again, now I'm an Ele. They seem to be the most versatile. Four elements each with a different play style.

Xenomortis · May 27, 2009, 09:51 AM // 09:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by yamazaru

changed my mind, again, now I'm an Ele. They seem to be the most versatile. Four elements each with a different play style.

*sigh*

You have been led astray.

Jeydra · May 28, 2009, 02:11 AM // 02:11

Elementalists are pretty versatile imo, you can slip into so many different shoes (although not excel in all of them of course):

1. Damage - Fire Magic (in NM and some selected HM areas), Air + PvE skills (in HM)
2. Support - Earth Magic (Churning Earth / Eruption) or Air Magic (Blinding Surge)
3. Healing - ER protting
4. Mallyx'ing - Ether Prism Restoration
5. Physical - Elemental attributes give you a Conjure + some defensive skills like Armor of Earth / Armor of Mist; the real problem is you can't trigger Barbs and MoP anymore

Energy Storage as a primary attribute is almost always useful, so Elementalists are similarly very versatile ... although they of course can't do most of what's written above better than every other class.

Rather off-topic though.